ects, you were actively pursuing policies to see that discrimination is not practiced on these projects. Mr. NASSIKAS. We are, sir, yes, in respect to recreational opportunities, not employment practices. Mr. WIGGINS. Now, the national policy to which several members have referred is a policy of no discrimination in employment, for several reasons, among them race. It is not a national policy which has been articulated by the Congress that any particular minority group shall be guaranteed a portion of employment in any project. Some would like to see that, as a matter of national policy, but it is not the policy nor the law at this time. However, Mr. Chairman, referring to the licensed projects, do you view the lack of a representative proportion of minority employees as evidence of discrimination? Mr. NASSIKAS. I view on a licensed project a percentage of minority employees as evidence of possible discrimination in those projects. The percentage of minority employees in terms of the ethnic composition or minority composition of a utility's franchise area should be considered as some evidence. On the other hand, you also might not have discrimination. I would think that there should be a complete analysis of the type of work and type of skills that are involved, and that kind of thing. Mr. WIGGINS. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman. I don't think that it is conclusive evidence of anything, although it is some evidence worthy of appropriate weight, and I understand you to agree. Now, given that agreement, what has your Commission done to accumulate that evidence, to enforce this policy of nondiscrimination with respect to licensed projects? Mr. NASSIKAS. The cases we have had since I have been here are as stated in my principal statement. As to licensed projects, generally, we have a number of 50-year licenses that have expired as well as many other licenses that are coming up. These are proceedings which will be coming up before the Commission. We will review all evidence that is presented to us and determine whether or not an applicant should have a license. Mr. WIGGINS. Well, now, that is a different question, Mr. Chairman. I concede that is what you should do with respect to renewals or new applications, but my inquiry is directed to newly licensed projects. Mr. NASSIKAS. Yes. Mr. WIGGINS. Do you make a supervision over their activities- Mr. WIGGINS (continuing). During the period of their license? Mr. NASSIKAS. We do and, frankly, sir, I really am not satisfied with the degree of our inspection. We do have inspection procedures. We also have sent out letters to the regional engineers, through Mr. Phillips, the Chief of the Bureau of Power, at my direction, as well as a letter from me to them to enforce civil rights. A recent letter, on November 11-let's see, I have the letter and I will call it to your attention. We don't have adequate personnel to conduct as many inspections as we would wish. The memorandum that I have reference to-I won't read this whole memorandum, I am just going to give you its conclusion. This is a survey of the utilization of recreational facilities by minority groups relating to licensed projects, and all our regional offices were asked to review their practices to insure compliance with our guidelines to avoid discrimination. For example, from our Fort Worth Regional Office, just as an example, there is a report stating that, "A sign complying with FPC Orders 299 and 341 has finally been placed at the project overlook area," and then there is a photo which shows the sign, and there are about 35 persons observed fishing, two are minority group, black, as shown in another photograph. Mr. WIGGINS. Mr. Chairman Mr. NASSIKAS. But I am not satisfied with that. Mr. WIGGINS (continuing). I have read the results of that survey and I wish to commend you for undertaking that survey. But that is only part of the problem. Mr. NASSIKAS. Yes. Mr. WIGGINS. The utilization of recreational facilities is important in itself Mr. NASSIKAS. Yes. Mr. WIGGINS (continuing). But employment practices, apart from the utilization of recreational facilities, is another important subject, and I am not aware of any surveys that you have conducted in that area with respect to licensed projects. Mr. NASSIKAS. Well, I would like to, if I could, review this with my staff and if we have done anything in the area, I will supply it for the record; if we have not done anything in the area, I will be equally candid. Mr. WIGGINS. Well, I am much more interested, Mr. Chairman, in seeing what you do in the future rather than to have you explain what happened in the past. Mr. NASSIKAS. I understand. Mr. WIGGINS. I agree with your position, that as to licensed projects, at least in that area, you have a duty to see that discrimination is not practiced by the licensees, by taking appropriate action—and I don't wish to infer at this moment that I know what is appropriate action in all cases. But I am not aware that you have done anything in that area with respect to employment and I hope that you will. Mr. NASSIKAS. I will clarify my position. I want to be certain that I haven't misled you in anything here. I don't believe that I stated that we have an obligation that has been assigned to us by the Congress as to an applicant for a license to eliminate discrimination. I don't think that statement Mr. WIGGINS. No, I don't think you did. I am talking about licensed projects. Mr. NASSIKAS. I clarify it for the record. Mr. WIGGINS. All right. Now, I would like to ask some questions about your in-house operations. Mr. NASSIKAS. Yes, sir. Mr. WIGGINS. You have appended to your remarks the regulations which are described as affirmative action programs to achieve this national policy of no discrimination, and you refer those regulations to minority groups. Mr. NASSIKAS. Yes, sir. Mr. WIGGINS. What groups are minority groups? Mr. NASSIKAS. Well, the minority group is defined Mr. Maxson has a definition of that, as defined under the Equal Employment Opportunities Act. Mr. MAXSON. In this report that you speak of, we are using the categories which we use in reporting to the Civil Service Commission, that is black, Spanish surnamed, oriental, American Indian, four of them. Mr. WIGGINS. Do you make any attempt to find out who is black and who is an Indian? Mr. MAXSON. The Civil Service Commission, in asking for these reports annually, has indicated that the standard is a visual judgment; that if you see that this employee is black or whatever his blood line is, he is counted as black. Mr. WIGGINS. It is an employer determination or an employee determination? Mr. MAXSON. The supervisor counts people in his office. Mr. NASSIKAS. I think it is a type of standard that I guess we would be precluded from inquiring which seems to be a somewhat subjective type of standard, requiring as to what somebody-what their racial origin is, and I happen to be proud of my own here. I don't know if anybody inquires about mine. I am of Greek origin. Mr. WIGGINS. I guess that since you are a greater minority than are blacks in this type of thing. The existence of the number of Greeks in this country as compared to the number of blacks is comparable. Now, having identified a minority person, however, what do you do with respect to that person in handling discrimination? Does that person get preference in hiring? Mr. MAXSON. No, sir. We have not, although we have been urged to do so, we have not set quotas by a certain date where we have a certain number of people on board. Mr. WIGGINS. Who has urged you to do so? Mr. MAXSON. You know, there has been the Philadelphia plan; and it has been a lively question in the administration and the Congress as to whether quotas are to be incorporated. Mr. WIGGINS. Who has urged you to do so? Mr. MAXSON. There have been-the women's groups, private organizations Mr. WIGGINS. Any official governmental agency? Mr. MAXSON. No, sir. Just as anyone would do, I guess, we have tried to find qualified minority people. We make an affirmative effort there that we don't make with regard to majority group people. Mr. WIGGINS. Give two qualified persons, one whom you have identified as a member of a minority group, how do you make your decision there? Mr. MAXSON. I would suppose that we can't say we adhere strictly to strictly without regard to race, color, creed and so on. We would give a slight preference, I believe, to a minority group person, but this is not to the disadvantage of anyone else applying. Mr. WIGGINS. I don't understand that statement. Mr. WIGGINS. If you discriminate in favor of one group you have to discriminate against another, almost by definition. Mr. MAXSON. Yes, I understand your thought Mr. WIGGINS. Well, if you are pursuing that policy, I am not being critical of it or laudatory of it either. I just would like to know, are you pursuing a policy of granting a preference to minority people in hiring. Mr. MAXSON. No, sir. I am trying to give you a candid comprehensive answer. What I am saying is, as a practical matter, that if we have two qualified people and only one job, as far as we can tell they are equally qualified, would assume we would be reflecting national policy in making sure the person who has been denied for 200 years, that person is going to have to have this job in order to move forward. I suppose there is an almost subconscious preference for that person. Mr. WIGGINS. Is that policy articulated in your regulations in any way? Mr. MAXSON. No, sir. That is just a personal view as to how I would probably handle it. Mr. WIGGINS. Is that your policy, Mr. Chairman? Mr. NASSIKAS. I would say yes. The policy is to improve, insofar as possible, the performance as an employer of minority groups as defined in the civil service regulations, but not to attempt to grant some type of a point preference to a minority group for a job. The policy is to avoid discrimination. Now, we have conscious policies, which Mr. Maxson didn't have an opportunity to articulate, of recruiting professional people, to the extent that we can, from so-called minority colleges. Mr. WIGGINS. In doing so, Mr. Chairman, do you apply the same standards of competence for a person recruited from a minority college which is an emphasized term, too Mr. NASSIKAS. Yes. Mr. WIGGINS (continuing). That you would apply to a person recruited from a majority college? Mr. NASSIKAS. It should be the same standard of competence. Mr. NASSIKAS. I don't think that it can be in all instances, no. But there is no conscious policy to make a selection on that basis. But in practice, you are saying, does it work that way. I would say that basically there is whatever you might wish to call, a tolerance or a bias in favor of employing more minority groups, taking somebody with a potential and trying to upgrade his skills, for example. He may not be the best student in college, but he might have a great potential. Mr. WIGGINS. You do that for a person in a majority group, I take it, as well? Mr. NASSIKAS. Yes. This is done in all aspects of our employment, although we do try, of course, to employ the ones that have standards of excellence and have shown it, because we are a technical agency. Mr. WIGGINS. I won't pursue this further because I think you have revealed what your bias is and I don't wish to indicate in any way, although I may at some later time indicate my own views on that. Mr. MAXSON. May I make one more remark? Mr. WIGGINS. Yes. Mr. MAXSON. Let me say most emphatically that we are not conscious of these figures that appear in this appendix A to the extent that we are running out trying to recruit numbers to enhance those figures. We are definitely not doing that. Mr. WIGGINS. Let me say that the testimony is confused at this point. I would like to drop that subject and ask one final question of you, Mr. Gooch. Mr. GOOCH. Yes, sir. Mr. WIGGINS. Have you had an opportunity to look at the decision of yesterday by the U.S. Supreme Court dealing with the Federal Trade Commission? Mr. Gooch. No, sir, I have seen only the newspaper accounts. Mr. WIGGINS. I have no idea whether that decision is relevant to our present discussion, but it does deal with one of the major regulatory agencies and it does deal with the expanded use of power. Mr. Chairman, if you would have no objection, I would ask you to review it and to indicate just by a note whether or not the thrust of that decision would change your mind in any way concerning the power of the Federal Power Commission to deal in this area. Mr. GOOCH. Yes, sir. Mr. WIGGINS. Thank you. Mr. EDWARDS. The gentleman from Ohio. Mr. KEATING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to pick up where my distinguished colleague from California has ended, on the selection and hiring of minority groups. And I might say to you that in my attempt to appraise your testimony-and I would like you to correct me if you feel I am unfair-that the hiring policy is such, that if you have people of equal abilities, as equal as people can become, that you will hire the minority group person. I would further assume from the testimony that in spite of the contrary statement, that there is always in your mind, consciously or subconsciously, an attempt to increase the numbers of minority people in your employment. And I think that accurately reflects more nearly the position of most major companies in the country today in striving to achieve greater employment of minority groups. I, like Mr. Wiggins, have no comment on that except to say that I believe that is the case and I have discussed this at some length with many different companies and there is a great deal of pirating that goes on. Companies have trained competent minority members with the potential, as indicated by the Chairman, that is recognized in many people that has not been developed in the school level or in any level, and you recognize the native ability that you can't capitalize on, and you bring him along and then someone hires him away. Mr. MAXSON. We have suffered much of that. Mr. KEATING. I think we have suffered much of that. I think these are the facts of life. Now, I think this is occurring. I would like to take up a couple of other points, if I may. I think there has been an indication that when it is called to your attention that a violation has occurred, then you move in and attempt to do something about it. My question is, are initiatives taken by your agency to look for violations as opposed to depending upon the Justice Department or the EEOC? |