KWAPONG. I would say the same, except that I think that one might partly add that they do realize that the militants like Carmichael and Rap Brown are, however uncomfortably one may put it, are still doing a necessary job for the United States, in shocking people out of their complacency into seeing the acuteness of the racial problems that exist. But there is no special view taken of these people in West Africa.

CONYERS. May I ask Mr. Mboya a question, please?

WALLACE. Yes, John.

CONYERS. Mike, my question is: Based on your travels, both here and in Africa, Mr. Mboya, do you consider the African to be more informed of the struggles and the condition of black Americans or do you consider black Americans to have more information about Africans?

MBOYA. Well, it's very difficult to determine how much each side knows, but perhaps there is more or greater knowledge, among the black Americans about the African struggle than the African knows about the conditions under which the black American lives.

KWAPONG. I would like to contract you there, Mr. Mboya. I think the experience is the opposite here in Ghana. I think in West Africa, or in Ghana, for instance, I would say from my own experience that people know more of what's going on in the United States than vice versa.

MBOYA. Well, I don't know. I don't know about that. I'm not quite sure about that. I think that when you take the actual conditions that exist in the United States, that few people know how really rough the situation is, except those who have traveled and visited and seen-there is a general feeling that the American society, an affluent society, a developed country, an old democracy, that for that reason, the Negro must be in a better position to defend himself than perhaps we have been in our own situation during the struggle for independence, say, in Kenya.

MCKISSICK. Mr. Mboya?

WALLACE. Mr. McKissick, you have a question you want to put to Mr. Mboya? MCKISSICK. Yes, I do have one. We black Americans are attempting to put in our schools and colleges, in the curriculums, much information about Africa, it's histories and dynasties, and et cetera. And I'm wondering what, if anything, African nations are doing about their educational systems to include history, or a connecting link in history, of the contributions that black Americans are making?

MBOYA. Since independence, most African countries are now trying to put in their school systems, the program of education that includes languages, cultures and so on. And also the writing of history books by African authors, finding out a lot more about our history than was written by the colonial educators during the colonial period.

MCKISSICK. I'm glad to hear that.

MBOYA. It therefore seems to me that this is one of the areas where the black Americans, especially your educational institutions, and the African nations could very well cooperate, work together to produce this kind of historical information which both sides are very much in need of.

KWAPONG. I think I can add here, you see, in this university, for instance, of which I am the head, the University of Ghana and similar institutions in West Africa and other places, they have the Institute of African Studies. And right now, there is quite a group of American scholars of both colors in Ghana, participating in a course on African history, African languages and general African culture.

WALLACE. Dr. Kwapong, while we are on the subject of education, it seems that of late young people more and more have come into prominence as sources of friction-specifically college students-attacking the social and political establishments in their countries. Has that happended in Ghana as well?

KWAPONG. I wouldn't say in just the same way. They are certainly very interested and they are restive, and I think the general sort of "student hurricane" going around the world, and I'm sure some eddies have reached this country. But at the moment, I think because of probably our own special circumstances the restiveness is a bit muted. And they are much more interested in nationbuilding, and in making sure that they have an opportunity to participate in the work of reconstructing Ghana. But there is definitely a great awareness and liveliness, and they are very much interested in what is going on. So, I would say that perhaps things are a little bit quiet on this front. Although anything might happen, any day.

WALLACE. What about you, Mr. Mboya? I gather that in London recently, some East African students gave you a little bit of a bad time?

MBOYA. Well, I think that, as I said in London last week, the whole student world is to some extent very uneasy, or affected by the current problems facing the younger generation. I think in a sense it is a reflection on the inadequacy of many of the political and social institutions that have been used in older countries for a long time. I think myself that more time will have to be given to the problem of not just the students but the younger generation.

WALLACE. Mr. Mboya and Dr. Kwapong, a number of African leaders have been educated abroad, you two among them. What attitudes about America do African students come home with? Dr. Kwapong?

KWAPONG. Well, I think one cannot give a stereotyped answer. But it varies, I think, upon the experiences they had. Those who were very well prepared and go to institutions where they were well received, come back with more balanced views than those who go to situations where they encounter discrimination and prejudice. They naturally are not terribly impressed by the dichotomy between protestations on the one hand of equality and actual practice on the other. But what they do come back is a greater sense of realism about the complexity of problems in the United States. They know there are good and bad things there, and they are rauch more impatient of all the things about the good that America is supposed to be doing to the exclusion of everything else. They know the picture is not as I mean as clear-cut as all that.

WALLACE. What about African students who go to study at Russian or Chinese Universities? What attitudes about communism, about racism, do they come home with?

KWAPONG. Oh, I think they come back-again without stereotype. But it depends upon the stage of training that they had, the type of background they had before they went. They come back, again understanding the pitfalls and the weaknesses of the Russian situation. In fact, I believe somebody said, that if you send an African to Paris, he come back home a communist. If he goes to Moscow, he comes back home a capitalist.

WALLACE. Gentlemen, if we may, let's talk a moment about women. In the United States, the blacks are said to have an essentially matriarchal society. What about the role of the black woman in Africa?

KWAPONG. Well, its-the role of the woman is all three everywhere. In fact, the education of the woman is one of the most important factors. Because I think, as Agree of Africa said: "If you educate a woman, you educate a whole nation. But if you educate a man, you only educate an individual." So the education of women is now taken very seriously, and they have an important role to play in all aspects of public as well as private life.

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WALLACE. Mr. Mboya, is that same thing true in East Africa or is the . . MBOYA. Well, this is the same, except I would add one point, which is that in our case, and I believe it's the same thing in West Africa, the woman played a very important role during the independence struggle. They made their contribution. And therefore they do have a right to expect the-not only continued participation, but also the benefits that come with independence. Now, looking at the future, as teachers, as people serving in the medical services, and even as statesmen and members of the Legislature, women are demanding a place in this whole sphere of activities. Unlike Europe and other older countries, the woman in Africa does not, in Kenya, in this case, does not have to fight for the right to vote and so on. They were entitled to vote right from the outset, right from the time we got our idenpendence.

WALLACE. Mr. Mboya-Mr. Mboya, what about interracial marriages? Are they frowned upon?

MBOYA. Well, they are not necessarily frowned upon, but they are still looked upon as strange happenings because we live in a society that is primarily tribal, and when people marry outside their race, leave alone marrying outside their tribe, there are bound to be a number of new social problems. These are not because people are against other races, but because the very nature of society and the conditions of life make this a strange happening in a land such as ours at the moment.

WALLACE. Let me change the subject, if I may, and ask a question about religion. Dr. Kwapong, I understand the Moslem religion is growing fast among black Africans. Is that true?

KWAPONG. I think it is growing, but not probably as fast as some people think, certainly in West Africa. I don't think it is gaining any greater converts in the

southern parts of West Africa, for instance. I think here the fact that Christianity was allied with modern types of education seems to-to give Christianity some advantage. But what I would say is that the pattern of Christianity that we had in colonial times is definitely changing as a result of nationalist reactions and, as a result of new-new changes taking place generally in the economic and social development of this area.

MBOYA. I think that in Africa today there's a great deal of questioning, asking and debating, of the role of Christianity in the life of the people and the Christian influence. And here we have to distinguish between Christianity as a religion, and Christianity as a means of introducing white so-called European civilization in Africa and there was a lot of confusion on this and there has been for a long time. The missionaries mistook the cultural and social standards that they have had in their own countries for Christianity. And the Africans have rejected this interpretation of Christianity. The African wants Christianity in an African setting.

CONYERS. Well, Tom, in America, in the black communities, the church, which has always been an unusually strong and different institution as compared from white society generally, is being re-examined very, very closely. There are now black clergymen and organizations of black ministers who are now relating around this concept and the responsibility of the church to give the kind of crucial leadership that's needed in the freedom movement, so that same kind of reexamination that you pointed to is going on. And there is also a growing antipathy toward the church as an institution in the black community because too frequently, in the past, the leadership of the church has really not been the legitimate black leadership that was so desperately needed, but they were pawns to either other greater religious institutions, or to political institutions within our community. And that day is coming to a very, very rapid halt.

MCKISSICK. You know, John, it was a Papal decree that allowed the Christian Church, actually the Catholic Church to go into Africa and really try to bring Christianity to the heathens. And I think that decree occurred-the Papal decree about 14-in the early 1400's that started slavery. And it was upon that theory that the slave routes were built, and this is the reason that we happen to be in the United States, and we have to be dealing with the various problems that we got now.

CONYERS. Well, the church as an institution, justified, condoned and actualized the whole system of slavery in this country.

MCKISSICK. Absolutely.

CONYERS. Now there have been some changes. I think we should be fair enough to point out, that there is the beginning of some movement in the church institutions in America to recognize that this question of civil rights and equal opportunity for black Americans has a very basic moral and religious foundation that white America has yet to adjust itself to. I mean, are black men and white men brothers in the Christian sense or are they not? Because, if they are, then there's a great deal of hypocrisy that has got to be addressed in this country with regard to this question. I think that there is the beginning of some movement but it's coming very slowly and with some great difficulty.

WALLACE. Gentlemen, I'm sorry that we have to pause for a few seconds now. When we come back though, I'd like to take up with you the black African view of the war in Vietnam, and the problems of racism and anti-Americanism in black Africa.

(Announcement.)

WALLACE. Mike Wallace, again. You are watching "Black World," an interconnected broadcast between Africa and the United States. We are examining the similarities and the differences between black Africa and black America. In Kenya, we are speaking with Mr. Thomas Mboya, Minister of Economic Planning and Development. Mr. Mboya attended Oxford University and he has visited America extensively during the last decade. Kenya, born of a revolution, is now a highly democratic nation, typical of many of the states of East Africa.

Dr. Alex Kwapong, the Vice Chancellor of the University of Ghana, is speaking from the studios of the Ghana Broadcasting Corporation in Ghana. Dr. Kwapong is a graduate of Cambridge University. He was a visiting professor at Princeton in 1962. And he has also visited the United States several times. Ghana is ruled by a military council. We shall be addressing ourselves to African forms of government during part of this broadcast.

Representative John Conyers, Democrat of Detroit, Michigan is at the CBS studios in Washington, and Mr. Floyd McKissick of the Congress of Racial Equality is speaking from New York.

Gentlemen, let's talk about the war in Vietnam. What is the African view, the black African view of American participation in that war?

MBOYA. Well, I think that I can generalize on this by saying that the majority, and in fact I haven't met any exceptions myself, the majority are completely against the continuance of the Vietnam war, and the majority do not understand why the Americans are involved in the Vietnam war. The majority feel that this is on the part of the Americans interference in the affairs of the peoples of Southeast Asia. I think that the majority feel that whatever problems there are in Vietnam should be resolved peacefully, and the majority feel that the war should be brought to an end so as to divert resources, and of course the energies of the peoples of that country to develop their own country.

I think that there is no sympathy in a country like Africa for a foreign nation which finds itself at war in a foreign country. This is for obvious reasons. Our history, our own struggle against colonialism, our struggle against white racism, all these go to make for this kind of attitude, which you will find in most African countries.

CONYERS. If you'll permit me to say, Tom Mboya, your description of the general African attitude toward the Vietnam war and America's participation in it is a description that could be carried over for the overwhelming majority of black Americans in this country. Wouldn't you say so, Floyd?

MCKISSICK. Well, I think that that's absolutely correct. We have suffered. Black people themselves have suffered immense casualties out of proportion. We do know, we do feel that is a capitalistic war, and we feel that it is time that we should let countries solve their own problems. And I think that nationalistic feeling that exists in Africa, which is related to the development of the new countries, is the same nationalistic feeling which exists among black people in this country, although black people are not in the majority in the white country. But the feelings and the attitudes and the aspirations are-have quite are quite the same.

CONYERS. Floyd, let me amplify one of your points to our African brothers. I've had a number of people ask me why, is black America against the war in Vietnam, are their numbers so small in the peace organizations, the demonstrations, the activities against the war. And I think that one of the reasons is that most black Americans-over half of them-are caught up with the day-to-day necessity of trying to exist in a very oppressive economic situation. And they don't have the time, and they're not able to participate in any kind of organized opposition. But I still think that our assessment is still very, very correct.

WALLACE. Mr. Mboya, let's talk about racism in Africa for a moment. In East Africa for instance, among blacks themselves, is there racism, one against the other? Is there such a thing as "the right color," for instance, in your country? MBOYA. No, there isn't. In fact, the point I think about East Africa, which should be a lesson to many countries, is that despite the pessimism that must have been expressed just before Independence, that the East African countries have managed to eliminate the main causes of racism in East Africa. There is not a single East African country where there is a law that supports in any manner or form racism, or which tolerates racism. In fact, all our laws and constitutions are very clear on this subject.

WALLACE. Mr. Mboya, may I interrupt for just a moment. There was an article in The New York Times in March of this year which said that Kenya "is guilty of racial discrimination, and bears heavy responsibility for the mass flight of Asians to London, that aroused the pressure for the immigration bars there. Kenya's drive to put Africans, trained or not, into jobs held by Asians is not only ruthless, but short-sighted and damaging to its own economy."

MBOYA. Well, I'm glad that you raised this point, and I'd like to say straightaway that I do not regard The New York Times as an authority on this subject; or for that matter, as an authority on African affairs. The point that I want to make is, firstly to give a background to what has taken place, the so-called "Asian exodus." Kenya became independent in 1963, and the first thing that we did was to allow all non-Africans a period of two years in which to decide to register as Kenyan citizens, or to stay in the country as aliens. That period ended in December, 1965. Therefore, at the end of 1965 and the beginning of 1966, we had in Kenya a group of non-Africans, Asians, and Europeans, who had become Kenyan citizens, and others who had decided to remain in Kenya but as aliens.

The second point to make is that those who remained in Kenya as aliens must have understood, right from the start, that the country in its development would, at some stage or another, have to introduce policies that would promote develop

ment for the citizens of the country. And what happened is that we have introduced legislation which requires that employers in the future, and this is four years after independence, would employ non-Kenyans only if they had a work permit. Now, I believe that this happens in the United States, it happens in Britain, it happens in all the developed countries. And it does not say that Asians only should get the required work permits. Every person, even of African origin, is required to have a work permit if he is not a Kenyan citizen.

I should like to add this piece of information, that when Kenya became independent Britain, on her own accord, decided to give an undertaking to all British passports-passport holders in Kenya that they would have free entry into Britain, as and when they felt like doing so. But recently, Britain decided to introduce a law barring British passport holders-in other words, British citizels of entry into Britain if they were not white people, if they were not of British origin. If therefore there is anyone to be accused of racism I think the accusation is to be directed to London, rather than to Nairobi. This is a very important point to make.

WALLACE. There is though, you will agree, Mr. Mboya, in Kenya social discrimination?

MBOYA. There is no social discrimination by the Kenya government. What we have is the remainder of what used to happen in the colonial period. For example, we used to have separate school, separate hospital facilities and so on. The Kenya government has introduced measures for complete integration of these facilities. What we have is a number of people, or groups-social groups in the country who are resisting such change, and it is the duty of the government, where there is any resistance, to break it down and to insure that full integration is introduced.

Let me deal with this question about the threat to our economy as a result of the departure of some Asians. As Minister for Planning and Development, I can state categorically that the Asians who have left Kenya can be regarded by all of us as "good riddance." In fact, the sooner they leave, the better. We need here men who are committed, men who feel identified to the cause and aspirations of the country. Not those who are going to resist and block our programs for development. And I think the sooner they go, what ever their qualifications, the better.

CONYERS. Mr. Wallace, a question of government to our African panelists. WALLACE. Yes.

CONYERS. And it concerns a wrong—the observation that democracy, by some of the critics of the newly emerging African governments are having a hard go of making democracy work. And my question turns upon the emergence of oneparty political government, of the increase of military governments, and the general notion that democracy as Americans look at it, may not necessarily be the best thing for the African governments going on there.

WALLACE. To whom are you putting the question?

CONYERS. To everybody.

WALLACE. Dr. Kwapong?

KWAPONG. If you have any sort of formal position where you say that because you have this or that institution, therefore a country is democratic. And it was in fact felt that the one-party state was a suitable vehicle for government for Africans. I think that everybody agrees now that that is not correct, but in fact what is needed is a system of government whereby the people-or the country-have a final say in who is ruling them.

MCKISSICK. Amen.

KWAPONG. And that they have the right of dissent. They have, in fact, if their leaders do what they don't want, they can put them out.

MCKISSICK. Amen, again.

KWAPONG. And if you have a one-party state, and you have the trappings of government which is supposed to be democratic, but the people cannot in fact speak their minds freely, the basic freedoms are denied, then I'm afraid you have to have a means of overthrowing this system in order to try to build up a democratic system. That is what is happening, for instance, in most parts of West Africa and other parts of Africa, where you have these military regimes which are transitional because they have to bring their governments back into line with what the people really want. That is proper development and the reflection of the true wishes of the people-in-and-and-freedom of expression and freedom of decision. These are the things which for instance people of this country-in Ghana-have learned to appreciate.